Brass Prices

[up148]

Interesting auction results. Not sure if this represents a new low or if buyers are out of money and it's just temporary. I'm assuming some came from the Seacrest auction, but I could be wrong. Martin, those prices at the National will be even more interesting now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-O-Key-Uni ... true&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352079727878?ss ... 1436.l2649


Whatever the reason, these are some remarkably low prices, and the buyer did very well. The new 3rd Rail E-8's cost more than either of these models sold for.

BH

[ScaleCraft]

Creative:

Control: self
Gender: many
Country/Region of Manufacture: Korea, Republic of
State of Assembly: Magnificent

[E7]

I'm guessing Summer (or almost Summer) is not the prime time for brass sales. Too many other distractions. Pretty sure they are both first run so there is some age there to be considered, and the pilot of the F3 has been modified (air hose added). The overall accuracy of those runs is still superior to the new 3RD Rail stuff. Some of it (3RD Rail) is OK, some not so much. Not good considering the amount of info and pics available. All the E7's had "shovel nose" pilots, which were incorrect for many roads. I'd rather have the older Key. Opinion

One caveat on Key: being hand made/assembled, some noses are better than others particularly in the area of the headlight.

[bob turner]

I like the E-7. If I assume that the E-8 nose is the same as the E-7, then I like Key's treatment of the curve at the lower outer edge of the windshield a lot better than 3rd Rail.

And don't forget - an ugly doorstop E-6 just sold for not much less than that, if you assume the A unit was 1/2 the value.

[up148]

I'm guessing Summer (or almost Summer) is not the prime time for brass sales. Too many other distractions. Pretty sure they are both first run so there is some age there to be considered, and the pilot of the F3 has been modified (air hose added). The overall accuracy of those runs is still superior to the new 3RD Rail stuff. Some of it (3RD Rail) is OK, some not so much. Not good considering the amount of info and pics available. All the E7's had "shovel nose" pilots, which were incorrect for many roads. I'd rather have the older Key. Opinion

One caveat on Key: being hand made/assembled, some noses are better than others particularly in the area of the headlight.

I agree with much of what you say, but 3rd Rail is improving with every offering if they could just get over the QC issues. Most of the Key E & F units I owned had a depressed area where the top headlight joins the hood and some had slanted headlights as well. This is a real issue for me as the prototype did not (see photos) and I see it every time I look at the model. Even the last run of E-9's, 2011/2012, had issues with the headlights. Roger and I finally agreed to disagree. I still own a pair of 2nd run F-3's that don't have this dip and the headlight faces are vertical.

Each model 3rd Rail imports seems to be more accurate than the one before and their new E-8's and E-9's are superior to even the F-7's IMHO. But, they still have some QC issues. The issues are fixable, but I don't understand why the builder who can make such an overall beautiful model allows these mistakes to happen. I think it's out of Scott's control as you can only push so hard or you lose the relationship.

But, these latest E-8's are equal in many ways (not all) to the Keys I've owned and still have DCC, sound, lights, etc. So, for an operator 3rd Rail is a good choice. For the dyed in the wool collector, Key still has the upper leg so far.

Opinion.

BH

[ScaleCraft]

Of course you know, comparing any E unit to those UP rebuilds is difficult. Like the nose door and grabs. Nose louvers.
There does seem to be a variance in size of side cab door windows on E-unit photos.

There must have been a reason UP eliminated the nose door and grabs on those rebuilds.
Compare the door window size to the UP. My micrometer eyeballs ain't what they used to be, but sure looks like the UP is smaller.

[Chris Webster]

Interesting auction results. Not sure if this represents a new low or if buyers are out of money and it's just temporary. I'm assuming some came from the Seacrest auction, but I could be wrong. Martin, those prices at the National will be even more interesting now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-O-Key-Uni ... true&rt=nc

Very interesting -- that ebay auction was for a Key Union Pacific E7 A-B set, road number #988, that sold for $950.

I too assumed it was a resale of a Stout Auctions piece, so I went and looked for it on their website. I found this completed Stout Auction, Lot #1074, that sold for $1450 back on April 8, 2017. I figured Brassmonger was reselling the same pieces, but then I looked closer and noticed that the auctions had different boxes. Stout's auction included a separate box for each diesel, while Brassmonger's auction had one larger box that is big enough for both diesels. The labels are also different; Stout's were labeled EMD E-8A and EMD E-8B, while Brassmonger's label says EMD E-7 A&B.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352079727878?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

That ebay auction was for a Key Union Pacific F-3 A-B set. I searched Stout for that set, but didn't find one, so I assumed wrong -- I now doubt that these pieces came from Stout.

[up148]

I agree with your findings Chris. I didn't go through the Stout auction list, just made an assumption. Any KEY E or F loco in double boxes are later runs. I believe the 1st and 2nd runs came in the single box. The E-7's surprised me as I thought they would sell in the mid teens, even being earlier run locos. The F-3's, being poorly weathered was anyones guess, but $1150 is still pretty cheap.

BH

[ScaleCraft]

The UP E-units have one 16-645 each, mounted centrally in the carbody. None of them have steam generators or HEP. They are essentially a GP-38. They have also been upgraded from 24L to 26L air brakes. And they have a standard GP-SD style control stand too.

Some wags refer to these as E38-2's, since not much left internally from an E8.

[up148]

Of course you know, comparing any E unit to those UP rebuilds is difficult. Like the nose door and grabs. Nose louvers.
There does seem to be a variance in size of side cab door windows on E-unit photos.

There must have been a reason UP eliminated the nose door and grabs on those rebuilds.
Compare the door window size to the UP. My micrometer eyeballs ain't what they used to be, but sure looks like the UP is smaller.

Your eyes are right on Dave. The door window on the UP rebuild is definitely smaller than the factory window on the others. Somewhere I have a side nose photo of an original UP E unit (pre-rebuild) and the headlight and nose contour is the same as this rebuild. Even looking at the Wabash and Rock Island E-8's from 3/4 nose views the upper headlight seems to be straight and flow nicely into the nose deck. I think KEY just missed it several times.

BH

[up148]

The UP E-units have one 16-645 each, mounted centrally in the carbody. None of them have steam generators or HEP. They are essentially a GP-38. They have also been upgraded from 24L to 26L air brakes. And they have a standard GP-SD style control stand too.

Some wags refer to these as E38-2's, since not much left internally from an E8.

Yep, but that retained the E series car body and that is their beauty to me. Always loved covered wagons over hood units.

BH

[ScaleCraft]

The UP E-units have one 16-645 each, mounted centrally in the carbody. None of them have steam generators or HEP. They are essentially a GP-38. They have also been upgraded from 24L to 26L air brakes. And they have a standard GP-SD style control stand too.

Some wags refer to these as E38-2's, since not much left internally from an E8.

Yep, but that retained the E series car body and that is their beauty to me. Always loved covered wagons over hood units.

BH

True. Like a resto-rod. But the details will kill ya if yer naught careful.
I recall a story, decades ago it seems, a tour of the D&S narrow gauge shops...and one member of the tour was an elderly well-renowned scale model locomotive scratchbuilder. He interrupted the tour to point out that the air input filter on the air pump was not prototypical.
The tour guide stopped the tour, looked at the older gentleman, and said "I don't know what you think this is, but THIS is the prototype, what you see here is what is ON the prototype!" Or something to that effect.

At what point does it become the "prototype"?
Hard to say anymore.

[E7]

Somewhere back in ancient history on THIS board, we went over the issue of the orientation of the headlight on E and F units. Erik Lindgren posted an EMD drawing showing that the top headlight is tilted slightly backward on an angle very similar to that of the front of the loco. They are NOT vertical in the drawings. Here we go again! Take note:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/sea ... tion=click

Rich

[E7]

Even looking at the Wabash and Rock Island E-8's from 3/4 nose views the upper headlight seems to be straight and flow nicely into the nose deck. I think KEY just missed it several times. BH

You need to look again. Get your glasses on! That ever so subtle tilt is there on both engines. Take a straight edge and place it on your screen (presuming you have a flat screen here) bisecting the lower headlight. Then look at the upper light. You will see the tilt.

One thing to take into consideration is that the REAL headlights were had formed so I'm sure there are/were variations out there.

I do agree that there should NOT be a dip where the headlight joins the main part of the nose! I have seen Key models with dents at various spots on the hood. All are not made equal!

BOTTOM LINE: LOOK AT THE DRAWINGS!

[ScaleCraft]

Drawings are interesting. You never know what the drawing you have access to will show. Was it built that way? Was it modified later or in production?
I recall the "fat boiler syndrome" on the K-27...where MR in 1973 did drawings of the Mudhen..pen and ink....and got to the end, found out they'd screwed up, and "dummied" it...so every stinking K-27 built from then on used the erroneous MR drawings (clue: Front cab doors were full rectangular, with dead vertical and parallel sides) which had "fat boiler" and doors angled on the inner sides to clear the boiler. The drawing of the INSIDE of the cab shows them correctly.
It took Soundtraxx/Blackstone to commission new drawings for their H0n3 K-27 to get it right, followed by the Botchman 1:20.3 scale K-27.
Dennis O'Berry wrote "Mudhens" and in a later printing had a overlay of the MR drawings onto a photo of the real thing. Amazingly BAD.
Then there is the Lionel F units....built from EMD drawings (EMC?) that were either preliminary or changed later. Showed on the car sides half grille (F-7?) and half chicken wire (F-3?)....so we always called them F-5's as something in between.
At least that's the story used to circulate in the Trash Collectors of America.