Gun Control + and -'s

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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:25 am

Tom Dempsey wrote:It would be rather unwise to look for rationality in the first five books, read them instead as allegories and things tend to settle down a bit.

I think you have said something very helpful and pertinent there, Tom. I am going to give it considerable thought.

I say that because, like Roger, I have long wondered about aspects of that Cain-and-Abel story. Cain received a "mark" for killing his brother and for lying to God about having done it, a mark that would let everybody else know he had done such a thing. Everybody? Who? We were taught the family was Adam; Eve, two sons, and some sisters??? AND? Who else was out there? Where? Ages? Race/ethnicity(ites) ? In "The Garden? Outside The Garden?

That ruminating is why I find your statement here well worth the considering, Tom.
Murph
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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:56 pm

MurphOnMillerAve wrote:
Tom Dempsey wrote:It would be rather unwise to look for rationality in the first five books, read them instead as allegories and things tend to settle down a bit.

I think you have said something very helpful and pertinent there, Tom. I am going to give it considerable thought.

I say that because, like Roger, I have long wondered about aspects of that Cain-and-Abel story. Cain received a "mark" for killing his brother and for lying to God about having done it, a mark that would let everybody else know he had done such a thing. Everybody? Who? We were taught the family was Adam; Eve, two sons, and some sisters??? AND? Who else was out there? Where? Ages? Race/ethnicity(ites) ? In "The Garden? Outside The Garden?


You are permitting rational thought to intrude, :mrgreen:
If someone throws a stone at you, throw a flower at them. Remember to throw the flower pot with it.

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:06 pm

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
MurphOnMillerAve wrote:
Tom Dempsey wrote:It would be rather unwise to look for rationality in the first five books, read them instead as allegories and things tend to settle down a bit.

I think you have said something very helpful and pertinent there, Tom. I am going to give it considerable thought.

I say that because, like Roger, I have long wondered about aspects of that Cain-and-Abel story. Cain received a "mark" for killing his brother and for lying to God about having done it, a mark that would let everybody else know he had done such a thing. Everybody? Who? We were taught the family was Adam; Eve, two sons, and some sisters??? AND? Who else was out there? Where? Ages? Race/ethnicity(ites) ? In "The Garden? Outside The Garden?


You are permitting rational thought to intrude, :mrgreen:

Thanks. I try. :)
For me, everything must be tested by it. However, sometimes, some things , for me, are accepted as matters of belief and faith, not logical, rational thought, such as transubstantiation (Roman Catholic) and Consubstantiation (Lutheran).

I attend Mass for two reasons, primarily: The Consecration, The Eucharist, and Koinonia. It can't be explained, but I feel I am the better for it all.
"Doing wrong is like a joke to a fool." Proverbs 10: 21-28

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:18 pm

MurphOnMillerAve wrote:
Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
MurphOnMillerAve wrote:I think you have said something very helpful and pertinent there, Tom. I am going to give it considerable thought.

I say that because, like Roger, I have long wondered about aspects of that Cain-and-Abel story. Cain received a "mark" for killing his brother and for lying to God about having done it, a mark that would let everybody else know he had done such a thing. Everybody? Who? We were taught the family was Adam; Eve, two sons, and some sisters??? AND? Who else was out there? Where? Ages? Race/ethnicity(ites) ? In "The Garden? Outside The Garden?


You are permitting rational thought to intrude, :mrgreen:

Thanks. I try. :)
For me, everything must be tested by it. However, sometimes, some things , for me, are accepted as matters of belief and faith, not logical, rational thought, such as transubstantiation (Roman Catholic) and Consubstantiation (Lutheran).


Hmmm.......no predestination?

Faith; noun. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

"Faith is much better than belief. Belief is when someone else does the thinking."

I attend Mass for two reasons, primarily: The Consecration, The Eucharist, and Koinonia. It can't be explained, but I feel I am the better for it all.


If it works for you then that is what matters.
If someone throws a stone at you, throw a flower at them. Remember to throw the flower pot with it.

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:30 pm

Rufus, Something that "works for " me is your often expressed opposition to or skepticism about holding religious beliefs and faith. I find your cynicism refreshing. I do not want, nor do I need, an echo to myself. I enjoy being inspired to consider further, on many matters, not just religion. You are a thoroughly enjoyable thinker. That has got be a good thing. How else would humankind have gotten to where we are now (no matter how dubious some of the shenanigans may have been) if it hadn't been for the questioners and skeptics.
:D Murph
"Doing wrong is like a joke to a fool." Proverbs 10: 21-28

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:10 pm

MurphOnMillerAve wrote:Rufus, Something that "works for " me is your often expressed opposition to or skepticism about holding religious beliefs and faith. I find your cynicism refreshing. I do not want, nor do I need, an echo to myself. I enjoy being inspired to consider further, on many matters, not just religion. You are a thoroughly enjoyable thinker.


What works for you, what works for others may be different. If everyone could do that, if everyone could have done that, well, if humaniuty were mature enough, then much would be far better than it is today.

Thinking is generally frowned upon, taken to be dangerous, and a risky proposition.

That has got be a good thing. How else would humankind have gotten to where we are now (no matter how dubious some of the shenanigans may have been) if it hadn't been for the questioners and skeptics.


Indeed. Many of them paid a high price for it, too.
If someone throws a stone at you, throw a flower at them. Remember to throw the flower pot with it.

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby rogruth » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Murph and Rufus,
YES.
roger

I support thread drift.
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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:26 pm

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
MurphOnMillerAve wrote:Rufus, Something that "works for " me is your often expressed opposition to or skepticism about holding religious beliefs and faith. I find your cynicism refreshing. I do not want, nor do I need, an echo to myself. I enjoy being inspired to consider further, on many matters, not just religion. You are a thoroughly enjoyable thinker.


What works for you, what works for others may be different. If everyone could do that, if everyone could have done that, well, if humaniuty were mature enough, then much would be far better than it is today.

Thinking is generally frowned upon, taken to be dangerous, and a risky proposition.

That has got be a good thing. How else would humankind have gotten to where we are now (no matter how dubious some of the shenanigans may have been) if it hadn't been for the questioners and skeptics.


Indeed. Many of them paid a high price for it, too.

At the risk of making an over-simplification, I wish somebody had questioned the first pope (Urban ll ) who sent the first Crusade (1095-1099 ) into the Middle East, to "rescue" The Holy Land. I believe we are still paying for that mess. (Of course, hindsight is always 20/20, huh. I guess ya had to be there :roll: .)
"Doing wrong is like a joke to a fool." Proverbs 10: 21-28

Tom Dempsey
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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby Tom Dempsey » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:10 pm

Somehow, over the years, I've come to the conclusion that the Crusades were more about ransacking the Holy Land then rescuing it.

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby HONDO74 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am

The Crusades were fought to recover the Holy Land (as it was then known) from its Muslim conquerors.

If we use the Kingdom of Judea as a starting point, that became a tributary state to the Roman Empire in 63 BC after being conquered by Pompey. Shortly thereafter, it became a Roman province, which was further consolidated with Galilee into the province of Syrian Palestine. Thereafter it had been part of the Roman Empire continuously, also becoming Christianised following Emperor Constantine's consolidation of power. It remained Christian and (Eastern) Roman until falling to one of Mohammed's successors, the Caliph Omar.

This was the era of great Muslim aggression and expansion, now generally called the Muslim conquests. From the death of Mohammed until the Crusades, Muslim armies conquered most of the Middle East, the Fertile Crescent, parts of Asia Minor, the whole of North Africa, parts of the Maghreb, and the Iberian Peninsula, great swathes of these from the Eastern Roman Empire.

The Christians, of course, retook Jerusalem in 1099 to form the short-lived Kingdom of Jerusalem, as a way of vindicating their possessions. The Crusades would not have happened without the prior Muslim aggression.

We can date the start of the First Crusade precisely. In March of 1095, Pope Urban II received an ambassador from the Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos pleading for help against Muslim (Seljuk) Turks who had conquered most of Byzantine Anatolia in the eastern Mediterranean. The Seljuks were being pushed from east by Mongol hordes (they’re always “hordes,” aren’t they?)

On 27 November 1095 the Pope gave a speech which electrified his listeners. It was, in effect, a call to arms. summoning nobles and peasants alike to wrest the Holy Land, and eastern churches from control of the Turks.

they had one clear objective: re-taking Jerusalem. The city had last been under Christian governance in the year 638**. They did conquer it in a July 1099 assault, massacring most of the Muslim and Jewish inhabitants. Accounts tell of city streets running red with blood of the citizenry.
The third and final wave of nobles arrived in 1101.

There would be eight more crusades, the last nearly 200 years later in 1271–1272. Together, they reopened the Mediterranean to commerce, enabling Genoa and Venice to flourish. They also unified the Latin Church under Popes made stronger by the crusades. The crusades produced thrilling stories of heroism, chivalry and piety. These tales fed medieval romance, philosophy and literature. In this way, the crusades reinforced the foundation of Western Civilization upon which so much of our present-day society rests.

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby HONDO74 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:31 am

As to who has the strongest claim

This Land is Mine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... evIyrrjTTY

Jerusalem: 4000 Years in 5 Minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mR2W43t6tI

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby Tom Dempsey » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:53 am

I'll stand by my previous statement, sometimes expressed intent and actuality don't coincide.

HONDO74
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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby HONDO74 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:40 pm

Tom Dempsey wrote:I'll stand by my previous statement, sometimes expressed intent and actuality don't coincide.


The first crusade was what it was meant to be, After that it became a land grab.........Until this continent was discovered. Then they had new land to grab and conquer. :mrgreen:

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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:17 pm

HONDO74 wrote:.... The Crusades would not have happened without the prior Muslim aggression....

That statement seems key , to me.
Last edited by MurphOnMillerAve on Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun Control + and -'s

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:23 pm

HONDO74 wrote:….. The crusades produced thrilling stories of heroism, chivalry and piety. These tales fed medieval romance, philosophy and literature. In this way, the crusades reinforced the foundation of Western Civilization upon which so much of our present-day society rests.

I am reminded, by this, of why and how the act of saluting, with a hand held at the head and/or hat, got started in the days of Chivalry, knights, and metal body-armor.

For armies to discern who was who under all that metal armor, in particular, the helmets, a knight would raise his visor to uncover his face. Hence, the origin of the hand being held up to the head , later interpreted and intended as a salute.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. :D
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"Doing wrong is like a joke to a fool." Proverbs 10: 21-28


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